NDOT Episode #61 W/ Jeff Weffelmeyer

Join the NDOT Crew and Jeff as we discuss Quints, truck culture, and new age crew bonding!

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:45

Got it.

SPEAKER_01 0:46

What is welcome back, shit bags. Thank you all for tuning in.

SPEAKER_00 0:54

Episode 61.

SPEAKER_01 0:57

Uh, thank you guys so much for for watching, for listening, wherever you guys are. Um, as always, huge thank you to our sponsors, Groupers, uh, Toxic Compression, Taylor's Tins, Job Tone Graphics. Go and show them all some love. Wouldn't be here, wouldn't have started all this without any of them. Um, so just so grateful as always. Uh, also, huge thank you, huge shout out, hazmat guys, command media network. Keep tuning into that stuff. Um, it's gonna just take this podcast to the next level, and we are extremely excited and uh really honored to have that opportunity. So, without further ado, let's bring in the man of the hour because you guys actually sent in questions for him. So, pat yourself on the back for that, and let's bring him in. So, welcome, Jeff. Hey Jeff, how's it going? It's good to be back. Yeah, absolutely. Uh, why don't you go ahead and give a quick introduction about yourself?

SPEAKER_03 1:49

Uh Jeff Offar, I work for the St. Louis Fire Department. Uh, worked there uh going coming on 17 years. Prior to that, I was in like the suburbs. Uh started as a junior volunteer and then uh part-time firefighter outside St. Louis County area. Currently a captain of Truck 4 on the sea shift.

SPEAKER_02 2:14

Awesome.

SPEAKER_01 2:15

Awesome. Well, thank you for taking the time to come along. We talked about before the episode, but you're on the lake, looks awesome out there. So we'll uh take a get the episode going so you can get back to fishing and enjoying it because that's uh that's the most important things about life.

SPEAKER_03 2:29

So yeah, as much as we all love the job, it's good to be off sometimes.

SPEAKER_01 2:34

Yeah, absolutely. It's kind of the one of the best parts about the job is the off time that we get. So any to any weekday could feel like a weekend, is what I always say.

SPEAKER_03 2:42

Although I'm getting to the point now that um I got a few days left, and I'm like, it's the time to go back to work yet.

SPEAKER_01 2:48

So yep, oh yeah, right at the end. It's it's always good to go back.

SPEAKER_03 2:52

Uh the first thing they say, I'm sorry, I guess they say that's when uh you're ready to retire when you don't want to go back after your vacation.

SPEAKER_01 3:00

That's true. That's true. The first question that we have for you was sent in by Jared, and the question is what made you choose the St. Louis fire department route?

SPEAKER_03 3:10

Uh I come from a long line of firefighters in my family. My dad was a uh deputy chief in uh St. Louis County. Um, my brother's uh assistant chief currently in St. Louis County, all my cousins, uncles. Um so I I kind of always wanted to do something different. It there's two two reasons. Uh that being the first, um, my my uh I worked at some of the same departments as my brother, which was awesome, but I watched him promote or give the assignment he wanted, and it was always, oh, it's because his dad was the chief at Fenton, or you know, his family's connected. So I kind of wanted to make my own name for myself. Um why I chose a bigger city. Uh I have a friend and mentor who uh he's long retired now, he's in his 80s, but uh he kind of took me under his wing when I started, and he was an auxiliary when he was in the Navy for the FDMY. So he was kind of FDMY buff. And he had all these documentaries from the uh warriors uh of the rescue companies, you know, one or two and three going to fire after fire after fire, and they uh walk through rescues with the doors open. And uh I'm like, man, I want to do that. What's that? And I started researching it, and there's only uh since the counties added a couple, um, but at the time I started, there was only two places in Missouri that you could go ride a heavy rescue full time, and that was St. Louis and Kansas City. So I'm like, I'm going there, I'm gonna do that. And uh I was able to pull that off. So that's awesome. That's the two, I guess a guy named Bill Johnson, and uh you know, the my dad and my family is the reason I work for St. Louis.

SPEAKER_01 5:12

It's always chasing the rescue. That's what everyone everyone wants to do.

SPEAKER_03 5:16

Oh my mom hated it, you know. Why don't you stay in the county and make make more money? But you know, the job's about more than money to me.

SPEAKER_01 5:25

Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. Uh, next question that we have, we're gonna jump into the kind of truck culture slash quint culture that uh St. Louis started and transitioned from. Um, so what is your opinion on quints and how can they be best utilized in just the modern fire service?

SPEAKER_03 5:47

Um well, the the true quint concept for a large department uh is pretty pretty much I think a failure because all the bigger departments, I think it was us and uh Richmond, Virginia, I believe, have all switched back or in the process of switching back. Uh with that being said, well, I don't like it in a big city environment. I understand uh the point. I mean, there's a lot of places that don't have the resources that a St. Louis has, just like we don't have the resources of FBNY or uh Chicago. And to sit there and say one way works for everyone and doesn't work would kind of be ignorant of us. Um I when everyone's operating off the same page, uh like SOG-driven response model, uh, they work, they work okay. Uh the one thing I've noticed from being in the quint concept my first couple years to uh being in transmission, we'll call it, the rest of my career, is uh I think truck work suffers the most when you uh do a quin concept. I think it breeds people racing to get first in because everybody loves the nozzle, right? I mean, I love I think most of us love truck work or a lot of us love truck work, but um, if you could guarantee every fire I go to, we're gonna be first in and I'm gonna have the nozzle. I would have never promoted or never left an engine company, but that's simply not how it works, you know. So um, yeah, I think if if you're a smaller department and you, you know, don't have the resources or the personnel. Uh, we teach, you know, I teach for several great companies uh in Missouri and really all over the country. And there's departments that uh put as many people on the scene of a fire, uh, the whole duration of the fire, that St. Louis arrives with that many people in one truck, you know, and we have five more apparatus coming on a uh, you know, a first alarm. And we can get, you know, another 35-40 firefighters five minutes later if we need them. So to say, you know, it's totally bad uh would would kind of be a disservice to the majority of the whole fire service.

SPEAKER_01 8:27

Yeah, it definitely takes more training. I mean, so my my department, three stations, and we run the quint on uh kind of our northern side so that we have a truck that's more available to that northern side. Um, and that's the station I'm out of. And I just got acting engineer on that and did the training, and it changes your like how you arrive. Because if we're first in, we're going to be the engine. And then it's a whole like that engineer's got to be thinking, am I gonna set up as an engine and leave room for our actual truck that's coming from a main station? Or are they gonna see if they can find a position that's perfect or works good for an engine and the stick? And it's like just a lot of things to think about because as they're pulling up, like, okay, I want to get that line in a in a good spot, but also, oh, hey, can I stop here and leave the turntable and sacrifice the line? Like, it's just it, I didn't realize how much goes into it when you're really kind of arriving, especially in that first end, is like a what am I? I think that's what people what people really don't like about the quin. That's why I say it's the transgender of the fire server, like, because it doesn't you don't know until you get there, and it just it just requires a little bit more training, a little more practice on the engineer to just make the decision and stick to it. I mean, that and that's the the kind of biggest thing that that we've seen in that experience when I was learning how to how to drive that.

SPEAKER_03 9:48

Yeah, our drivers um are really good. Um our truck, we still run them, right? I'm assigned to one now currently. Um, we have trucks, uh, we obviously have engines, trucks are 75 foot um quints, and then our hook and ladders, uh, which there's five in the city getting ready to put a sixth in service, actually, are either uh 125-foot straight sticks or 100-foot buckets. Um so like you'll get at least usually one or two trucks, depending on where they're at. And you know, one's usually operating as an engine, and then one operates as a truck, and then you'll get a hook and ladder and a rescue squad on a uh first alarm, in addition to the other um engines that are coming in. But there are areas of the city or people are on medical runs or companies are in reserves to where uh you'll end up with you know three engines uh and a hook and ladder on the still, you know, the uh before you get the extra companies, or conversely, you know, three truck companies uh that are riding as engines, you know.

SPEAKER_02 11:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 11:07

So we are still to this day a very arrival-based SOG-driven department. And if people position appropriately, like you said, which like I said, most of our drivers are really good at that, uh, we can get our area, like if truck four is first, we we position to stretch hose line, obviously, but also get our ladder into play most of the time. So once the lines are charged, the driver throws up the stick or the you know, the guy we train with all the companies around us. So, you know, if the 32s are second, they're in the engine, they know how to operate our truck and they can get use our aerial, and they still have most, if not all, the truck tools on their apparatus as well. So um coming off the quint concept and doing it so long, uh, we kind of got it figured out, but yeah, absolutely it does get confusing to your point sometimes. Like what you're gonna do.

SPEAKER_01 12:09

Like you said though, I think as long as you got the right SOGs and it and it's a rival base. I mean, that's I think that's most of the issues in it is people like to know I'm on a truck, so I'm gonna be doing truck shit. I'm on an engine, I'm gonna be doing engine shit. Whereas if you're if you're on a quint and the way that your SOGs are set up, you really don't know until you get there what you're gonna be doing, but it's it's still at that point becomes pretty straightforward. And if you have everything positioned properly, you everything set up, like you said, you have the good SOGs. I mean, it it works well, and I love that your point that it works well for these smaller, your medium-sized departments. Like, we're not gonna have all of these things. I'm we're just lucky that we actually have a truck company still as well. Like we have a we have a true truck that's gonna come, and so they're gonna do truck stuff, but it's that Quint is just basically a supportive unit to just better give us more resources that we otherwise wouldn't be able to do.

SPEAKER_03 13:05

Yeah, and Missouri specifically, you know, because that's where I'm at, and uh I spend a lot of time teaching, there are very few actual dedicated single-purpose truck companies in this the whole state, like probably less than 20, you know, for the whole state of Missouri. So everybody's running a quint of some type, you know. Even our even our big trucks and and most of Kansas City's big truck companies, they still have hose and pumps and yeah, stuff like that.

SPEAKER_00 13:39

So we have a quint too with 300 gallons on it as a booster tank. And uh the only our response plan for that, we have the engine and the truck leaving at the same time, usually. We usually got three in the engine and uh two or three in the truck. So we kind of use the truck as a uh backup line. Um the engine kind of pulls out their primary line. Um, and that's very like situation dependent, but we try to run as a true truck as possible. Um or we lay or we lay in for the engine. So that's how kind of we rerun our truck. Um it doesn't really pull the initial line off ours at all.

SPEAKER_03 14:25

Yeah, in in St. Louis, we have a lot um you know, we got a lot of strong chiefs, and uh we've just promoted a ton of people the last year or so. So training's been the top priority, both from the administration with our new mayor and um putting money and effort into it. So in all the new promotions and the strong chiefs, like we have a lot of that stuff worked out with the companies around us. Like as it sits now, before they put the hook and ladder in my battalion, we're surrounded by engine companies. So if it's not really close to the firehouse and we're not dispatched first, we're taking truck work even if we're third. Where the SOGs say, you know, it's supposed to be the second in company. Well, we kind of change that, you know, it's not in the SOGs, it's just kind of common sense of what the Chiefs want. That if a truck's on the heels, let them take truck work because they got the aerial, and then let the engines do backup water. Uh, as far as we're if we're first and the lines come off our truck, like I said, the companies can use our aerial or our tools. Um, but we get our own water supplies, you know, even the engines, everyone gets their own water supply first in. And then the third and engine company takes backup water. So instead of having the backup line coming off a different different apparatus, I know some departments run it that way. Uh, we just back to a second supply, you know, uh reverse laid to where they're on the plug. So if the first end's pump goes down or whatever, we have that safety net of the second water supply. Um, yeah, but we're blessed in St. Louis. We got a lot of plugs, a lot of hydrants, you know, every 300 feet. Um who knows how many thousands of them are. I know it sucks every year when we got to check them all, but there's a lot. Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 16:20

We're lucky all our apartment checks ours, so yeah. We just gotta do fire inspections.

SPEAKER_03 16:25

So yeah. We got uh yeah, hydrant testing and hose testing, the ones in the spring, one's in the fall. So hydro hydr testing sometimes starts in like August, and you're like, oh, that's not the fall. So awesome.

SPEAKER_01 16:42

Keep it on the kind of same topic. What in your opinion do you think drives a truck culture?

SPEAKER_03 16:49

Uh I believe truck culture should be search culture. You know, the most important thing the truck companies do, um, in my opinion, is go places any other profession can't and looks for people in places they shouldn't be. And we're equipped to go in there. Um, if we get in there and we can search everything that's um searchable for us, um I think like most people in that are really into it, I I I mean, I'm not a like, I don't like the whole victim profiling, like in the aspect of me standing on the outside, say, oh, there it's not a chance there's not a lot they're alive in there because fire's coming out of every window. Well, we found kids in closets before that were untouched. Like our job, the engine's job is to take back space in the truck company's job, whether you're on a quint, uh a dedicated truck company or a rescue company, however, you arrive, is to go in there and search those spaces and get the people out and give get them in the hands of EMS and give them every chance to survive. Um so to me, I think a strong truck company or truck culture in a department is hand in hand with a strong uh search culture because St. Louis, Kansas City, you know, I have friends up there, Chicago friends up there. We're we're big on roof ops, but for the the most of the country, I don't think that's a smart use of resources when you're running limited resources. I think the better use for the earlier arriving companies is to get in there and search, search those spaces. Our gear is so good now. Um, the engine companies, especially in St. Louis, are so good that we're taking back space and getting people in there quicker than ever before. You know, so um if you can push being good at searches, I think the rest of the truck skills come along with that because the fastest way to get people in some of these modern buildings to search is to throw ladders and get in the windows.

SPEAKER_01 19:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 19:07

So I think if you focus on the search uh part of our job, the rest of the truck skills tend to take care of themselves, uh, maybe with the exception of vertical ventilation.

SPEAKER_00 19:21

Yeah. Yeah, we prioritize that search because we're limited staff before that vertical vent. So we occupy all the spaces that we can in the first five minutes. And if uh our incoming crews will take the roof if if we have the personnel to do it, but we don't prioritize it.

SPEAKER_01 19:40

No. Yeah, I like kind of going back to what you said about that searchable, survivable. Like, I think that is really got footing and it's much more accepted. But when it used to be that whole uh profiling, like the searchable for survival, and no one's survived, like it's searchable space or not. And it's can you occupy that space with your gear, with the nozzle, your training, whatever, like not just sitting there and going, ah, no one's out, no one's out. I mean, there's so many stories that have been out that I think that's starting to be driven in. I don't know. I I've experienced it, and maybe it's only because when we go to these trainings, that's what everyone's in that same mindset that everyone hates the term survivable space, but I feel like you just can't ignore the the results, the the situations anymore, the people that survive these unsurvivable conditions. Like we just you need to prioritize getting in there and taking back as much space as you can.

SPEAKER_03 20:39

Absolutely. And you know, uh other people have said this, you know. I I'm a firm believer, everything I say in this podcast, everything I teach, nobody's really making up new stuff in the fire service. So if I say something and people want to use it, you don't have we don't have to give credit, no one's making up new terms. I mean, they kind of are, but if you research back far enough, it was in a book, you know, uh 70 years ago in a different term. But um everything I've learned is from senior men, mentors, and instructors that came before me. Um the fire service will be great after uh I retire. It was great before I started. Um, I don't think that's gonna change for any of us. So share it all. But the reason I go on that tangent, and I'm not the only person to say this, the two things I hate most that I try and avoid uh hearing or saying on the radio, is we have a bystander report of all clear of the building or all occupants counted for, and nothing showing. Those are the two things uh standalone. You have to say nothing showing, but nothing showing at this time, nothing showing from side A or uh, you know, on a high rise. You know, you could say nothing's showing. Well, I only saw one side of the building in a building that's designed to have the windows be stronger and be intact. So it's yeah, there's plenty of decent high-rise fires where you have nothing showing when we first get there. So I think it makes people stand down, it deprioritizes the search. Uh, so I try and avoid uh saying uh any report of all clear. Um, I try and avoid uh we have a lot of vacance, it's part of our size up. Um, I try and avoid saying uh vacant. If it's if it's collapsed and dilapidated, I'll say abandoned because that's what our policy says. But I treat every building like it's occupied until we say so. And I think some of that stuff on the radio, um it gets people to stand down a little bit. It's yeah, absolutely. Everyone's in a rush to get there, so I get, you know, if you don't for sure have a working fire, you you want to put you know, nothing showing at this time. Um, but when you put that over the radio, guys maybe slow down a little bit or don't grab all their tools, they're not going through their normal checklist. They're uh okay, now I'm gonna run in and get to the fire and start opening up, and I'm not gonna search. And and how many times have we been on these fires or you read stories to where uh so and so forgot that Timmy's spending the night from, you know, because that's not their normal routine, you know, or uh conversely, you've had it the opposite where firefighters have been killed or seriously injured when a parents like my kids in there. Well, they don't know the kids got out the back of the house.

SPEAKER_01 23:53

Yep.

SPEAKER_03 23:53

And we go in and we push hard and and guys get hurt thinking people are in there. If we just approached everything the same, like people are in there or in their space we got to get to, and then you evaluate the building, like, okay, well, it doesn't make much sense to push on this one because the building's compromised. But we've even had it where the buildings are compromised, and a company, you know, kicks in a door and pulls someone out of the hallway, or we have a uh homeless person in the front room and on the top story, the roof's off. Like, so even in St. Louis, uh, most areas I've ever worked, even if we're going defensive, guys will pop a window, uh, you know, force a door, look in with a tick. And if there's an opportunity to get in there real quick and secure it or search it, or make sure no one's in there, we'll we'll take that risk uh in a calculated manner um to search what we can.

SPEAKER_00 24:55

I like that uh idea goes for fire alarms too. I know a lot of people are like, ah, it's just another fucking fire alarm, but that fire alarm could be something fire. I only had a couple times in my career so far, like go to a fire alarm, so I was supposed to go fire alarms five times a week here, but it was actually something and uh actually running a fire alarm like you would in a normal smoke showing just having the same mindset going into it, um will help in reducing those injuries that you're just off your guard once you get there.

SPEAKER_03 25:32

So we we have that problem with the fire alarms because obviously a big city, we run a lot, a lot of fire alarms. Um, and this is before I came on, but something that's kind of helped that, in my opinion, is we run the first company urgent, and everyone else is on the quiet. So instead of the same three companies, you know, the downtown companies, the midtown companies who would go on, you know, sometimes eight, ten automatic alarms a day, only the first is running urgent, and the other companies are on the quiet. Uh so it kind of spreads the workload of putting all your stuff on, grabbing your tools, grabbing your high-rise packs, if it's a high rise, uh, to where it's at least a rotating thing to where the first is urgent, they treat it like a real fire. Uh, or if you know they decide not to take their uh high-rise packs or whatever, it's kind of worked out that the second company will bring them. The first takes truck tools and investigates. So that's kind of made it a little um better. But I I yeah, I would be a liar if I didn't say there was I've been we've all been caught. Yeah, you know, going automatic alarms and you don't have the stuff you should have. Uh and it's uh it's I get it, it's a hard habit to break when you're on your last day of the cycle and you're 17 runs deep, and you're uh I had one one time at the 17s where it was the fifth time we went to the building that day, and the fifth time was actually a fire.

SPEAKER_01 27:05

Oh, it always always works out like that.

SPEAKER_03 27:08

Yeah, yeah. And you think that would be the one time I got caught in my career. No, I was caught after that, so slow, slow learner, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:18

Absolutely. Well, kind of speaking of mistakes and learning from them, uh, what is one mistake that you commonly see young firefighters make?

SPEAKER_03 27:28

Um one mistake, young firefighter. I think the the number one issue in the fire service, and I went through this myself, um, is people want to move up too quickly. They I don't want to say they're entitled. Uh some of these young guys work their ass off. You know, they take a lot of classes, they're into it. Um I just went through the transition myself, and I think people want to move up and move to jobs or promote into positions before they've mastered the one they're at. Yeah. So uh I don't know how to fix it, uh, other than, and I get it, you know, like on our job, especially there is this significant pay difference between a firefighter and an officer's once you start moving up. It's a shame that it's that way. That's kind of how the city's operated because we we have the same pay matrix as the police department, and uh, you know, they the higher ups in the police department have done a good job of negotiating for higher raises. And I wish that gap wasn't there because it it pushes people to want to promote quicker before they've truly mastered being a firefighter or master being a driver. And um once you move up, there's it's not just about yourself anymore, it's about the group of people um that you are supposed to lead. And um yeah, that that and uh I'm as guilty as anyone of this one. Uh and the cell phones. I just the the I tell uh we got a new guy now on probation, and he's he's doing great. Uh, but I basically tell him, you know, hey, your phone better not be out when we're driving around, you know, to and from runs, going to the store out training. Like you need to be looking at buildings, you need to be paying attention to stuff. Um, and I get it, man. I've social media reading stuff. I'm I'm probably on my phone way too much as most of us are in this day and age, but on the truck, uh, we need to be paying attention to our still and uh learning as as much as we can, especially your first five years.

SPEAKER_01 29:52

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I love that. That's I think something that we all know is gonna get worse. But even you look at I know Brennan, we talked about you see the departments where you put in the bunk rooms and stuff, and it's those individualized rooms. Like you start bringing all these kinds of new age isolation, which oh, it's so nice, you get your own room, but all of a sudden then people are ending up in their rooms instead of in the chairs watching TV together. Did the kitchen tables a lot of people looking at their phones instead of talking and solving the world's problems, like we all know we do. Like it's we're all like you say, you're guilty of it. I'm guilty of it. It's it's just the new age. But if we can we can keep it in mind a little more and limit it when we can, it's gonna make things a lot a lot better.

SPEAKER_03 30:38

So my nephew, he uh 19, uh getting ready to be turned 20 in the fall. And he just uh actually today he signed out to take his paramedic test. So go figure he's my blood and he's going into the fire service. But uh he was telling his dad, uh man, uh he's been doing some rides at an ambulance base, like non non-fire service. He's like, they let me wear their my slides, and they said I could bring in my Xbox and all that. I'm like, John and I, my brother are both like, whoa, whoa, whoa, slow your roll. Like, you're not gonna do that. Like, that's you got way too much to learn, and yeah, uh, you know, everyone wants to jump to it. I get it, but the technology's cool and the the games are cool and phones are cool, but and you with the new guys, I think you gotta have you know, maybe no phones at dinner, no phones till noon, you know. I'm not being unrealistic, like you're our new guy's got a pregnant wife, so I would never say, Hey, leave your phone in your locker until 5 p.m. I would never do that. But you know, if if you have strong senior members, like I have strong senior men uh that had to step up because the job's getting young, and you kind of lay out the expectation, like when they're driving around, we're quizzing them on buildings, and you're you know, their phones not down or are not up, and we're paying attention, and you set the standard that the men will follow. So absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 32:10

I think it's kind of funny because we've noticed it as well, just that new age difference. When you mentioned like the Xbox, like it's kind of now a new way that you can hang out with the crew though, and doing that in terms of our our uh our younger guys. I mean, myself, I got a system too that's that I bring in, and like we at night, you know, if we all wind it down, like it's used to be watching movies, and we still our crew does try and do some moving uh nights, and it's uh usually a good time. But when we got people out there, we'll put up PGA, we'll put up NBA, and like we'll all be playing it at least together and not go into just the little corners and everyone playing by themselves. Like, we try and try and make it a kind of group thing still, and I think that's probably the only happy medium that we're gonna get as things progress. I mean, it's gonna be a little bit of accepting it, but yeah, it's it's kind of it's it's different.

SPEAKER_03 33:00

And I do want to be clear, I I get it. I'm an old school gamer myself, like I'm one of them them dads now that I could have gone pro in Call of Duty back in the day. So like I'm not against it, but we we did it too, you know. We did it at the 29s uh when I was there, you know, on rescue two, and we would but we would always wait till the evening when the work's done and it's our time to think you should in today's day and age come in and just I'm in my slides, which I'm for slides too. You know, I'm a crocs guy, that's my generation, yeah. But you know, not during the day, not in public eyes, and not you know, oh yeah, when you're there's work to be done or uh training to be done, or you're a new person. And yeah, absolutely. I mean, let's be real, the the members on probation should have different rights than members that are you know off probation and have proved their worth. Yeah, right, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 33:57

That's definitely something that has changed as well because you see it's a lot more in most of it for the good, but it's not as much of a separation anymore. But then you see when it goes too far the other way, and someone they don't feel like they're being challenged at all, they show up in their slides, they they rack out at 10 o'clock, and you're looking around for them, like, where the fuck is and it's like, oh yeah, he went and laid down. What?

SPEAKER_03 34:22

Like that's the dude I find uh in you give them more responsibility. You ask him to because usually it's a person that's either burnt out or got a little bit of time on, and that's the one when you're you pull them aside, in my my opinion, and like, hey, I need you to step up and teach you this, or I need you to do that. And uh a lot of times you can change their attitude without being the asshole, like coming in and being like, hey, yeah, you shouldn't have your slides and be well. If you give them the responsibility, hey, I need you to teach these guys X, Y, Z, it usually, from my limited experience, will get people motivated, get them back on task to, you know, just I don't have to do it all. We should all want to do it. And if you you find um people's strengths and then have them, you know, have them teach driver operations and pump operations to the new guys, and it gives them purpose again and it remind reminds them why they got in this job in the first place because the majority of the people on every fire department in this country that I've been around, St. Louis too, want to do a good job. And either the department, uh, their department, their training staff, their officers over the years failed them and lost them along the way. Like we can get most of them back. Now there's some people that just need to go and they usually take care of themselves, from my experience. But most people want to do a good job, they just haven't been shown the way. So it's up to us, the people into the job, to show them the way, the right way.

SPEAKER_00 36:07

Yeah, something cool that we do on our shift. Uh, my captain, he's like, hey, or he lays out a whole month, and every day we work, someone knew teaches their topic of that day. So my day was the other day, and I taught or um, what did I teach? We learned a new drill at Great Lakes for Rit is putting up down firefighter, they're laying limp, and you gotta put their pack back on blindfolded. There's a quick drill at night we did. Um, so that that gives everyone an opportunity to teach what they want to teach. Like what you're good at, like Shugs. He's type one diabetic, we call him Shugs. He loves force voluntary. So he was teaching force voluntary the other day, and it just goes down the list, even to the probing, hey, you teach us something. Like take a tool out of the truck and teach us about it. But there I think that really gets the crew engaged and kind of keeps the responsibility of everyone teaching each other stuff, except just the cast or lieutenant teaching something.

SPEAKER_03 37:09

Yeah, that's the approach I've tried to take as uh quote unquote a boss is I I told the the guys we had coming in. Um you know, we had the the guys on the crew at the time, hey, we get a new guy coming in. It's your new guy, it's it's not my new guy. You have to work with them every day. And uh, you know, the Nick and um Erbacher, I and Malik have stepped up to to help our new guy tremendously. Malik's our driver, so he goes over the truck with them every day. Uh Nick's huge into uh training, and so is Herbacher. And I don't have to do much except evaluate it at the end and go out and quiz. Uh, and they're they're all in. I mean, they're they're rocking it out. Um, and I couldn't be happier with with the guys I'm working with right now. They're they're top notch. You know, I just come in, come in and hey, how that how did uh go when I was off or how'd this go? You know, I've been off a lot this summer, you know. So when I come in, uh, how's this going? How's that going? Um, and they're they're rocking it out. I couldn't be happier. That's awesome. It's awesome.

SPEAKER_00 38:25

Makes your job a lot easier to have a good crew.

SPEAKER_03 38:27

Yeah, oh I'm blessed.

SPEAKER_00 38:30

Awesome. All right, so we got uh some like generic questions we ask everybody. Um, the first one, you don't get no contacts, you just kind of answer how you want. Um, but it is why are we here?

SPEAKER_03 38:45

The fire department in specific is here to put out fires and rescue people. We're the only um profession that the citizens have no choice on what they get. Like in I mean profession, volunteer and paid. You know, you can be a professional volunteer department and you can be an unprofessional paid department. We've all seen examples of that. But uh my point being is if you got money and you don't like the police, you can hire hire private security. If you don't want to call uh a 911-based EMS organization, you can go online and have a private um ambulance come to your house if you're willing to pay. You have your choice of plumbers, you have your choice of uh electricians, mechanics. You do not have a choice on your fire department. And we are here to be the best at putting out fires and rescuing people, um, in my mind.

unknown 39:51

I like that.

SPEAKER_00 39:52

Awesome. I like that. First time I hear that way. That's cool. Um, second one, um, looking back, what advice would you have given yourself when you started?

SPEAKER_03 40:05

Uh well, I would be a pretty a pretty big hypocrite if I didn't say this. Uh and it just worked out in this way in my career. But uh I would don't be in a rush. Uh the job flies by, but you're gonna have so many opportunities in this job to do whatever you want to do, and that's based on the effort you put in. So don't be in a rush to get to the rescue squad, don't be in a rush to promote, don't be in a rush to get to a hooking ladder or get on the specialty teams. Um, you know, and I'm not saying I was or wasn't, but uh that's that's probably man, if you try and do the right thing, I always try and do the right thing for the people around me. Um, not necessarily always what's best for myself, whether it's uh speaking up against something or, you know, um I always try and do what's best for the team. And I've done that my whole career, and it's paid off, you know, and there'll be there's a lot of speed bumps along the way. But uh man, if if you try and do the right thing, you'll get to do so much cool stuff in this job, like stuff I never imagined. Um, I didn't think I'd be on, you know, Missouri Task Force One going all across the country for emergencies. I didn't think I'd get involved and have a chance to teach at FDIC or teach with engine house training or O'Burn Powerground training or pull TTRS, uh, you know, teach and rescue stuff all across the state of Missouri. Like, man, they all these opportunities fell in my lap just by trying to do the right thing.

SPEAKER_00 41:49

That's awesome. That's cool. All right. Um, what is the best way to pass on knowledge in the firehouse?

SPEAKER_03 41:58

Uh I think passing on knowledge training, I think two things. Uh debrief, hot wash, at least at the company level, if not greater after every legit incident like rescue or fire. Um we always did that, you know, uh with everywhere I've worked, at least at the company level. Um I think that's one. And then I have not always been good with this because I'm into the job, I'll come and I'll train for six hours. It doesn't bug me. Most people are not that way.

unknown 42:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 42:42

Right? And I don't need I don't need you to be me or big ate up into the job 247. We call them firefruits in St. Louis. I don't need everyone to be a fire fruit. You know, I don't need everyone to be a fire fruit, but what we need is people that are into the job when they're at work. Yeah. Yeah. And the best way to pass on knowledge I have found uh through trial and error and having buddies, you know, Johnny or driver on rescue too, like laugh, everyone doesn't want to train for six hours. But um the way I found best is little short segments throughout the day. 10, 15 minute training sessions, asking questions about a building, or uh, you know, once we get on on medical runs and the guys are doing their thing and everything's safe, I'll kind of step back, wait for the medic unit, and I'll do like 360s in the building. Um, several times now they make fun of me because I like find other runs to call in, like find wires down or whatever, like in the backyard or you know, some sort of hazard that we call in after. Um, but I'll see that stuff, and then when we get the patient taken care of and in the medic unit and they're gone, like we still have access to the property. Or whatever, I'll tell the guys do a 360 and then see what they see and if they catch it. Stuff like that, man. And bring a ask a quick question about a run at dinner, and then 20 minutes later, you're talking something related. Uh you know, the other thing, um this is kind of when it was the old crew when I first got there. I checked the truck every day, and if something was suspicious or I didn't think was right, well, okay, we're training on that today. So as soon as the morning routine's done and we go out, like, hey, let's find a building, throw the 35-foot ladder, and then we get the 35-foot ladder out and the halyard's messed up. Yeah. Well, I think that teaches, well, now they're good, those guys are gonna pay attention to that every morning now. Yeah. So uh instead of trying to sit down and doing stuff for hours on end, um, which like I said, um I have had a hard time with that in the past. You know, just do some 10, 15, 20 minutes at a time, you know, three to five times throughout the shift, and the training hours really start to stack up. Everything doesn't have to be super complex. Go down to the training academy and XYZ.

SPEAKER_00 45:20

So right, absolutely. Now the last question, this question came in. I think it was a comment on your Facebook thing. That was from Emmy. He said, uh, what's your favorite Filipino food?

SPEAKER_03 45:33

Oh, well, she that's one of my uh non-fire best friends from high school uh wife, and uh she makes lupia, so I don't know, it's Filipino egg rolls, those things are a different, they're like five-sized though, so they'll get you in trouble. And then she makes like a they can't be good for you, but they are delicious, like uh Asian deep fried uh rib. Oh you know, I'll tell you what, till you have them, you haven't lived. So I couldn't want to eat them every day, but they're pretty good. So those I guess pick those two.

SPEAKER_00 46:10

Bryce, you can win your rib contest. Yeah, something different. Awesome.

SPEAKER_03 46:17

I don't I don't know how she uh I don't know how she makes them, and truthfully, I don't want to know because I'm already a big enough dude, and if I can make them, I'd probably make them every day.

SPEAKER_01 46:25

So awesome. Well, guys, like Brendan said, that wraps up uh most of the question that we have. Now is the last uh part, the one that every what every one of our guests loves, and that's the question from our previous guest, and then you have to come up with a question for our next guest. So before we go into the question that was asked of you, um, our next guest will be Logan Hinkle. Um, young guy, passionate guy, into the job. Uh, he's a captain of EMS, I believe is his title. And he also started his own training company within the last few years. Um, so he'll be our next guest on, so you can start thinking about stuff there. Um, but the question that we have from our previous one is talk about your feelings on searching ahead of the line with a can, or do you search with a line on an engine?

SPEAKER_03 47:14

Uh I think uh with modern gear training techniques, thermal imaging cameras, uh, if you're not searching ahead of, above, or adjacent to an attack line, uh, you're doing your citizens a huge disservice. Borderline uh cowardice, in my opinion. Um we are more equipped than ever before. We have more training information than ever before. Um the line is just too slow. It is not fast enough. Don't get me wrong, we have great engines. It's not a knock of the engine people. There's so much nozzle floor, good stuff out there that they're we're putting lines in place quicker than ever before. Um, also because of the gear and equipment we have. Um, but if you're not trying to, if you try to search with the line versus no line, there's hands down, the fastest way to get in there is not have a hose line. Um it comes with training, trust, a mutual respect between the people on the line, and uh we all have them, right? I've been to fires to go floor above or in front of the line, and you look and you're like, that crew's got me. They'll be in the burn unit before they leave me hanging. Then you look at people and you'll be like, uh uh maybe I'll split off a guy to go with them, you know, or uh, you know, see if the rescue's got a uh a spare guy to put on the line to make sure it goes to the right place. So um you gotta do it. I I I don't see we know that time is a killer more than ever before because of the smoke and the byproducts of what's burning. Uh we cannot do anything that slows us down uh from getting to those searchable spaces and finding if people are there or not.

SPEAKER_01 49:04

Absolutely. I think searching with a line is an opportunity, it shouldn't be your plan. Like if you're you got the line and you're moving, you're going to the fire room, it's like, oh shit, there's a guy. Like you should kick off a little bit there, like, but it should not be a hey, grab that line and go search the building.

SPEAKER_03 49:20

Like, yeah, that's that's not a primary search. That's searching for fire and they come across the victim, which happens probably more than the latter. Yeah, you know, a lot most rescue. Why? Because people, where's the line going? The most common path traveled to the fire. Where do people go? The most common path they're used to using every time, and usually they intersect. Well, um, with that being said, you gotta have a plan for that. Like we drill it with our, and I'm sure I stole this from Smooth Bar Cartel and all that. Like, we we drill that. Like our guys know, the guys on my company know. If you come across a victim, crawl over them and turn on the line. Whatever direction you think the fire is, don't shut it off because you're bringing fresh air in down low. Um, and you know, I'll work on getting the victim out because I'm usually in the backup position until our water supply guy gets in there, and I'll I'll start getting the victim to the door. And when I run into a truck guy or whatever, I'll hand off the victim, right? Yeah, because I get back to my person. And I'm a huge, I'm a huge believer in uh handing off victims uh and continuing the search if you can. Everybody's gonna know at the end of the day who pulled who out, but then you're not starting from scratch. You know, I have a retired battalion chief, he was my captain at the time, uh, was uh Mike Corson. He he taught us that very, very early in our career. Hand hand off the victims and and go do your thing. And then uh as you are gonna be on a hose line, have the plan in place for if you find a victim because it's gonna happen sooner or later. And then the last thing for the new guys that make sure uh are anyone that's riding on the nozzle position, we call it leadoff um with me, is you never need my permission to open the nozzle. Right? You I could always tell you to shut it off, I could always dry shit out, you know, like Kurt says, but I can't I can't unburn you. And it's a travesty that some departments are still teaching, you know, the penciling and yeah uh all that in their their drill towers, because that shit doesn't work in real life. Um and guys don't know, like we still run into old school guys or guys, even young captains that were just taught wrong, are I I don't want to say taught wrong, that's how it was back, even when I came on, but the science has disproven that and the fires are different. Like, get if you're hot or you think it's hot, you're not really hurting much by opening the nozzle. So you do not need an officer's position uh permission to open the nozzle, you do not need to see fire to open the nozzle. If ideally we train them to understand the conditions on when to not or when, but if you don't have that experience or they're they're you know unsure, open the nozzle. I'd always crawl up there and say, Shut it down. What are you doing? We're two rooms away. Like you don't need to yet, but if you're unsure, put water in the environment. You know, you're not really hurting things.

SPEAKER_01 52:33

Absolutely. Yeah, buildings are total loss, anyways. And it's nowadays with the the stuff that's burning, I mean, even your room and contents is damn near ruining a residential structure. Like the people are like, oh, the oh, you you're gonna hurt it with the water damage. Like if you have it's it's just it's not hell, it's not hurting it at all. You're making your situation better, and you're not saving the homeowner any money. Like that's that's not what you should be thinking of.

SPEAKER_03 53:02

Yeah, and you know, I'm not we're aggressive, but we don't want to be reckless, right? So, like absolutely it's the same thing because we were working, there's some areas of St. Louis that are are pretty rough, and they don't have a ton of money. A lot of them don't have insurance. We we had a tornado a little over a year ago. We're we're dealing with that mess now. Um, so I I mean I don't want to destroy all their belongings and structures, and we've anyone that's worked in St. Louis long enough, you'll have a fire and you'll see people living in other parts of the house sometimes that night because they got nowhere else to go. But uh, so I don't want to be uh I want to be aggressive, I don't want to be reckless, and I I want to overhaul or ventilate the windows I need to, and then open the ones I don't need to. Uh, you know, we don't need to break everything, but we shouldn't certainly shouldn't have newer members on the nozzle scared to open the nozzle because they don't see fire or being unsure on when to open it. So um I'm all for aggressiveness, but we also need to know what we're doing and and have the reason around it. Absolutely. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 54:13

Last thing we've got is the question that you have to ask Logan. So, and you got some time to think on it, maybe even a little more than uh than you have. Uh, what question do you want us to ask him?

SPEAKER_03 54:25

Um, I just like to uh I kind of looked up his stuff when he told me who was next. And I don't know, Logan seems like a good dude. Um I'd like to know, you know, compare and contrast or hear him compare and contrast the uh when he's teaching truck work for like an urban environment versus suburban environment. And I'll follow up and listen because um we actually do a class with engine house uh it's very similar. So I'd be curious. Uh I was fortunate enough to spend, you know, uh about nine years of my career in the suburban and rural environment. So I got a pretty good handle on that, but that was you know 17 plus years ago. So I'd like to see what's changed because um, like when I was at those departments, they've they've since changed. We never searched without a hose line. Yeah, like we always, and that was the thing back then. And um, I got to the St. Louis and my first fire doing search without a hose line, I got lost in the closet, and my captain had to come pull me out because I was so used to having that umbilical. And now I actually prefer to not have the hose line. I pay more attention to where I'm at in the building. Absolutely. You know, yeah, and statistics back that up, right? There's a lot of maydays of people that were just humping hose lines and then just lose the hose line. Well, they weren't doing their room-oriented search or counting corners or any of the little tricks that we we do when you're searching without a line. So it's a skill set every firefighter should have, um, in my opinion. Not to go off on another tangent.

SPEAKER_01 56:08

No, it's it's it's perfect. But absolutely, dude. Well, thank you so much for taking the time to come on, taking the time out of your nice trip uh to the lake. Uh, we really appreciate taking the time, sharing the knowledge that you have. Um, and yeah, the last part we have here is the the kitchen table. If there's anything last uh that you want to shout out, anybody you want to shout out, trainings, uh, right before we wrap up, floor is yours.

SPEAKER_03 56:33

Well, I kind of did it, but uh, you know, the St. Louis Fire Department, obviously, first and foremost, I love love the members. I've they've given me a tremendous amount of opportunity and headaches along the way. Uh but you know, we uh I taught seven academy classes. So the group, the cadre of the academy instructors we've built over the years, and including, you know, doing hands-on training now, department-wide. Uh those those guys are top-notch. Um, engine house training was gave me my start in teaching uh with Jason Hobelman and and all those guys, uh separate outside the fire department. Um got picked up by O'Byrne, Friar Ground Training, Chad Daly, those guys, Paul out of Kansas City, they're top-notch, you know, they're lifelong friends now. Um, and then uh total total technical rescue training uh out of um St. Louis uh County. Those are a bunch of guys that you know, we teach teach all the tech rescue stuff all over the state. Uh most of us are in Missouri Task Force One together, and then uh the Fools, Muddy River Fools, you know, those are all organizations that I'm equally proud of to be a part of as I am the St. Louis Fire Department. And uh probably most importantly is you know, my wife and kids, you know. Uh my wife just turned 40. That's why we were at the lake. I got a nine-year-old and a five-year-old. And uh my wife and I just celebrated our 13th year anniversary, I believe. And uh I can't believe she's put up with it that this long because I've kind of ate up with the fire service, and I don't have ass anything. So um when I when I'm in, I'm in. So absolutely. I'm sure I forgot some people along the way, but uh you know the big thing I want to touch on, I I've been involved with uh a line of duty death and a successful writ rescue. Um Ben Polson, you can look him up, it was January uh 13th of 2022, and uh another guy, uh Justin this year. And um the differences between the two scenes were uh very, very apparent. Uh fortunately with Justin, we had just wrapped up department-wide rip training like the week before that happened. Um so uh which was pushed by the the the pulsing line of duty death uh after the reports came out and everything by the members, uh pushing it up the chain of command. The department agreed, facilitated it, paid overtime for instructors becoming off duty, and it made a difference. So the two messages I like to point out with with those um incidents are uh man, you you don't think it's gonna happen in your career, and and then it does, and then it happens twice. You know, um I would pay attention to all that safety and survival, all that writ training. Uh, hopefully everyone goes through their career, never has to deal with it. Um, that's certainly what I thought. But the crew I was on at the time on rescue two, um, we trained that every cycle. We trained some sort of firefighter rescue. We had plans, and uh we were ultimately able to recover our brother and uh bring him out. And then uh that group was also a big part of the group with Cody Carpenter uh pushing to do the department-wide training that we got done, and it makes a difference. And um hopefully no one's ever in that situation, but uh you should prepare every day like um like you could be, because man, it happens, yeah, despite what we think it happens, and I'll tell you what what saved Justin talking to her. Uh well, one of the things that saved Justin is he uh he checked his bottle that morning and it was a little low. And um when he after he checked it, he put a new bottle in because it was just a little low. Well, he he didn't have but like five or ten breaths left based off how he was breathing and this the reports of the air pack when we were able to free him from the collapse he was in. So if you don't think the if you don't think the little details matter in this job, uh you're in the wrong profession.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:22

Absolutely. That's crazy. Well awesome.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:25

Well, thank you for sharing that. Thank you for the message, thank you for all the knowledge that you dropped in this last hour. Um, and thank you everybody for tuning in, watching. Huge thank you to everybody who sent in questions. We appreciate it. Any way you want to send in questions, do it. If you know us personally, you want to text us, you want to message us on Facebook, uh, comment on the post, email, website. If you got a question for a guest, we got send it in. We love to share them. So thank you everybody for watching. Jeff, thank you for taking the time out of the beautiful late day that you're having to share some of this stuff. And as always, don't be a shit bag.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:01

Thanks for coming on, Jeff. Thanks for listening.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:04

Don't be a shit bag.